Should Podcasts Be Videos? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)

Many podcasts are now recording video as well as audio, from hit interview shows like "Call Her Daddy" to the entire slate of New York Times audio podcasts. But why is an audio medium turning to video? And what do listeners think? Nick Quah, the podcast critic for Vulture and New York Magazine, joins to discuss. Plus, we take calls from listeners with their opinions on the subject for our latest installment of "Small Stakes, Big Opinions."

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Okay, you've seen the social media clips. Two people on a couch, oversized headphones, a couple of microphones, and a ring light just out of frame. Has podcasting gone visual or just gone viral? Some shows are launching with video from the start. Others are retrofitting their setups, trying to keep up with what works. On YouTube, a billion people a month are viewing podcasts, but what happens when an audio-first medium starts chasing the social media scroll? Has video killed the podcast star?

Podcast critic Nick Quah wrote about this shift for Vulture, and now The New York Times is weighing in too, calling it the great podcast pivot. For this edition of Small Stakes, Big Opinions, we're asking Nick Quah and you, our WNYC Radio listeners, is video good for the audio industry? Will it help medium gain new listeners? Is it good for listeners? Does anything get lost along the way? Is it a podcast if you have to watch it? Give us a call now. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in, you can join us on air, or you can reach out via social media, or you can text that number as well. Our social media, by the way, is @AllOfItWNYC. Hey, Nick, how are you?

Nick Quah: Doing good. How are you?

Alison Stewart: I am doing well. When did you first start noticing podcasting branching out into video?

Nick Quah: Podcasting had, to some extent, many earlier podcasts, when you think about 2014, '13, when you think about something like The Joe Rogan Experience, they've always been posting video on YouTube in particular. I remember about 10 years ago, you would find something like WTF with Marc Maron or something like The Read, which are conversational podcasts. They would throw up the audio file on YouTube and slap on the show tiles.

Now, you can also go a little bit further beyond that because podcasts and the original conception of the technology refer to both audio and video on demand, that's distributed over RSS feeds, and you can access it through the Apple Podcasts or iTunes Store, but the current iteration, where we're thinking about the aesthetics you were talking about, which is so prevalent that there are commercials of fake people making podcasts to sell pharmaceuticals, for example. That has been just the past couple of years. I first started noticing when Spotify tried to add video components, and they continue to add video component to many of their podcast products or podcast shows that they produce.

Of course, where we are right now is driven principally by YouTube. I suppose you could argue, noticing what's been happening in your backyard and going-- I see people trying to take this video podcast stuff. I'm just going to label that we've always been here and now YouTube is a primary distributor of podcasts. You can contest that concept, you can contest that notion on a bunch of different technical terms. Right now, I think if you ask your average 20-something-year-old in the street, like, "Do you consume a podcast?" They probably will say that they are doing so over YouTube.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about how these video podcasts, what did they first look like and what have they evolved into?

Nick Quah: Again, if we come back to one of these examples of this, which would be The Joe Rogan Experience, it looks virtually unchanged from when it first started publishing on YouTube way back when-- But a lot of the newer generation types, if you think about something like Call Her Daddy, if you think about something like-- Amy Poehler just launched a new show called Good Hang. Like there is this kind of studio that you can look at, and the studio has a lot of endorsements on its walls.

Sometimes it's pictures, sometimes a lot of it is neon lights for whatever example. Andrew Schulz's Flagrant has a couch. It kind of looks like a slightly gussied up version of a cable access talk show. You kind of think about Wayne's World but a little neater and nicer and more [unintelligible 00:04:23]. I think that's the way I would phrase a lot of these compositions.

Alison Stewart: This is a little bit of an odd question, but what seemed to be the goal of adding video to audio podcasts?

Nick Quah: Principally, my understanding of the reason that they add video is because that's where the money is. YouTube is the current driver of a tremendous amount of money when it comes to what we think about as digital video. Digital video wasn't once only synonymous with YouTube, but right now, when you think about just the sheer number of influencers and creators in our lives, a lot of them came up through that system and through that platform, and that's where a lot of the money is.

A lot of brands are advertising through the platform, and a lot of brands are comfortable and they understand how to buy ads on shows on YouTube. The way you could think about it is that a lot of the podcast business between 2012 to 2021, '22, there was always this question of when will it really, really explode in terms of its industrial revenue. I think it's pretty straightforward to say that they looked at videos as a good way to add that to the mix. Now that YouTube is responding and kind of coming to our house, like it's very much revenue-oriented.

There's a secondary answer, which is, a lot of the newer generation podcasts that are built specifically for video, they do find a lot of benefit from being able to travel through social on video. There has been a long conversation in the audio podcast community about whether audio can go viral, about discoverability, how do you find out about your new favorite podcast? Often that meant word of mouth.

Some people who have the privilege and luxury of reading me will discover new podcasts through my own curation, but these days, the language of 2025 on the Internet is principally video, and it's principally short-form video. There's an element where if it travels on social, the idea and the hope is that you trickle back to the four-hour, five-hour episode after you see a clip on Instagram.

Alison Stewart: Who has been successful at that?

Nick Quah: Well, you have the the biggies, shows like Call Her Daddy, shows like, again, Joe Rogan, Theo Von, the class of podcasters that you think are in top of mind right now, they're all beneficiaries of video in the long form and video in the short form. There's also an interesting sub-breed of podcast that seems to be more successful on social video than actually the podcast. A podcast that kind of fits into this is something called, I believe they call it MD Foodie Boyz or MC Foodie Boyz. It's a bunch of adolescents talking about food and other things.

My colleague over at The Cut wrote about them not too long ago. What's interesting about the metrics there is that their social numbers do a lot better than their actual YouTube numbers, or the actual long form numbers, at least at the time of the report. I haven't gone back and taken a look at that. There is that kind of reversed phenomenon that's happening to some extent.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about podcasts pivot to video. Listeners, Small Stakes, Big Opinions, we want to know, do you prefer watching a podcast or just listening? Tell us why. Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call us or text us at that number. My guest is Nick Quah, Vulture's podcast critic.

Okay, here are some texts we got, "When podcasts have video, it's a very different experience. Less intimate. Watching adds a layer, but takes away the concentration on what's being said. More professionalized and therefore less raw, and seemingly spontaneous means the guests are more polished people who are dressed, made-up, lit for video. All those guests are more useful to being on camera."

Another one says, "More and more podcasts refer to images I can't see. I feel like I'm losing something." Let's talk to Charles, who's calling in from the Upper West Side. Hi, Charles, thanks for making the time to call All Of It.

Charles: Thank you. Well, listen, having a voice like yours come across, it's almost like you'd be-- it's like Apple putting a camera in a phone. It takes away from the voice, it takes away from who you are. It's like two versions of just one thing that really gets to the point. I can only see it happening if someone was handicapped for the video. Outside of that, Alison, you're fantastic. Keep doing that.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Thank you, Charles. I appreciate the compliments. What is the difference between a video podcast and an audio-only podcast? What have you noticed is the difference between the two?

Nick Quah: At the most conceptual level, the video podcast can only support and cater a certain kind of podcasts ultimately, and understandably, that's a big category. It is like the conversational, the interview show thing, shows that could basically be live to tape. You can't necessarily cut in new segments, something like This American Life or Radiolab. It's very difficult to conceptualize a version of that show that can be produced in terms of video. If you just think about the kinds of video podcasts that you're seeing traveling around the Internet, it is the conversational talk show style. Now, there are certain operations that's trying to split difference.

One that I'm thinking of in particular is Pablo Torre Finds Out, he's a former ESPN video anchor, I suppose you could use that phrase. He is doing a mix of conversational interviews and conversational all sort of episodes, but also he's trying to do these narrative documentaries. He does that by getting the person who has reported out the story onto the show and telling the story as if it's live.

There are certain constraints, and the video component only makes sense to a certain point, but as a result of this, like the way it privileges this form over the other, it has reallocated in terms of how people think about when they make shows, what kinds of shows are being made. Video has not been able to support audio documentaries, for example. I think we're seeing that in the money that's supporting that genre, which is declining, and things like that. It's not a trend that benefits everybody. I should also say video privileges people who look good on video or who look interesting on video.

Alison Stewart: Well, that's what everybody says. Everybody says, "I would have gone into broadcast journalism if I wanted to be on camera."

Nick Quah: Right. That was a quote that somebody gave me when I first reported out a version of this piece last year, and I think about it a lot. I think about it especially when I go on podcasts now. I forget these days that I'm supposed to look okay for camera so they can clip it and put it on social. I like to do these spots like having just rolled out of bed and not having to think about doing my hair [crosstalk].

Alison Stewart: Totally. I [crosstalk]--

Nick Quah: Not a fan, personally.

Alison Stewart: Yes, the last time I was on TV was seven years ago, regularly. I was used to. I was on TV for a long time. I went to radio for a reason. The idea of coming to video is like, "Ah, they want to put a video camera in here. I don't know how I feel about that."

Nick Quah: Absolutely, and then you have to think about body language. You got to hold your body a certain way, you got to look like you're interested and things like that. It's just a lot of work. Sometimes I just want a conversation and I want to stare off into my Pender floor lamp as I listen to the response. That's a really important skill.

Alison Stewart: I had Morgan Spector from The Gilded Age in here, and he was like, "Wow, radio is really different. It's really different."

Nick Quah: [laughs]

Alison Stewart: He'd been on this big publicity tour, and he's like, "I don't think I've actually been on the radio before." He really kind of liked it because we went in different directions, and we made faces at each other when a caller called in. There's something kind of intimate about radio. That's my opinion.

Nick Quah: Oh, yes. That's the classic buzzword keyphrase when it comes to audio and radio, but I will nuance this by saying that I think the pressing towards a certain kind of aesthetic and a certain kind of show as a result of video podcasting. I don't necessarily think like it's self-determined. It is the type of show that gets supported the most by the platform and the revenues. We could come up with crazier, wackier-looking video podcasts, more interesting to look at video podcasts, but this is more of a question of economics and a question of what audiences can take in order to get from 0 to 1.

Alison Stewart: I want to ask you one question before we go to a quick break. This is a question for you, if you can answer it. How long does a YouTube or audio recording need to be to qualify as a podcast? How many minutes?

Nick Quah: By YouTube? To be counted as a view?

Alison Stewart: I guess so.

Nick Quah: For YouTube, to be counted as a view, I believe it's anywhere for a couple of seconds to be considered. Like that adds to the view count. If you're talking about how long it has to be or what the shape of a podcast needs to be to fit the conceptual definition of podcast, I do not know what to tell you, because that's not how we define the category and the concept these days. There's a huge identity crisis that the podcasting is going through right now as a result of the squishiness of this question.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Nick Quah, Vulture's podcast critic. We are talking about podcasts turning to video. It's the Small Stakes, Big Opinion segment. We want to know do you prefer watching a podcast or just listening, and why? Give us a call. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We'll have more after a quick break.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Nick Quah, Vulture's podcast critic. He's joining us for our Small Stakes, Big Opinions. We want to know do you prefer watching a podcast or just listening, and why? Give us a call at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Let's talk to Dorian from. Hi, Dorian. Thanks for making the time to call All Of It.

Dorian: Hi. Thanks. I have a comment that's also a question, which is, it seems to me that the move to video is largely commercially driven because the rates for advertising on video, the amount that's paid for ads on video, are a lot more than the ad rates for audio. Therefore, people can collect not only the audio advertising but the higher ad rates on video, which has driven a lot of this. Also, I'll just say, Alison, you were great on TV.

Alison Stewart: [laughs]

Dorian: I remember you with that. I remember you with Anderson Cooper, and you were great.

Alison Stewart: That guy, I wonder what happened to him. Anyway, thanks for calling.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: I wanted to get your response.

Nick Quah: Yes, it's actually the other way around. It used to be the case that audio ads on podcasts, which is this audio only, they actually are more valuable per spot. Yes, the caller is absolutely right. It is commercially driven. It's commercially driven insofar as there are just more audiences in video. There's more defined audiences and more defined advertising products that brands and advertisers are comfortable buying into with video at scale. That's the thing that's driving a lot of-- The caller is absolutely right, but again, it's like, it's mostly a certain kind of show that gets the benefit from this. That's why we're seeing an explosion of, again, a certain kind of show and aesthetic.

Alison Stewart: It's kind of interesting because audio, there was no gatekeeper. It could be two people with a microphone, but now the setups are getting pretty intense for these videos. They're getting cameras and lightings and multi-camera editing. I'm wondering is it changing the gatekeepers?

Nick Quah: I'm thinking about two things with this. One, I think it's actually a tenuous relationship where we still don't know whether a higher-quality video experience translates into bigger listenership,-

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Nick Quah: -because we had to sort of drill back into the question of what exactly the user behavior is. I actually think that it's still unexamined, it's still not particularly clear despite however long that New York Times article was. My gut feeling is that a lot of the way that this is consumed is it's thrown on in the background. I used to go into my doctor's office when I lived in Boise, Idaho, and like when I walk in, the receptionist has Conan O'Brien's podcast, YouTube video, going on in the background, but she's not looking at it because she's doing work, so it functions like radio.

It's unclear whether the video component is why people go to it, whether they're actually watching all three to four hours of the video component. I will also say that YouTube itself you could argue is kind of low barriers to entry. Anybody can publish to YouTube, anybody can try to game the algorithm. Anybody can try to benefit from the network effects of YouTube. Those two things actually kind of complicate the notion of whether there's a higher gatekeeping. You could say there's maybe a higher threshold of acceptable quality, but that was also true the case for podcasting when it was just audio.

I have a lot of time for poorly edited, scratchy sounding podcasts that's just audio, if it's specifically about something that I like. For example, my favorite Oklahoma City Thunder podcast, I could listen to four hours of that even though it sounds like garbage. I think it's also true for YouTube videos. Like there are some really not particularly well put together YouTube videos that can still really benefit from the algorithm.

Alison Stewart: This is an interesting text, "I'm not saying clips don't pull me in from social media, but I almost never watch the full show. If I'm interested in a show's topic and have to, I will listen and likely never take a look at the screen. I need to multitask."

Nick Quah: That's a very good point. We still don't know if the widespread of social clips actually translates into actual listenerships of the full podcast. This is an age-old question. It pertains to brand advertising as well. If I see a bag flying around Instagram, am I more likely to buy the bag or whatever? This is a similar question here. It's like if I see clips of Timothée Chalamet talking about [unintelligible 00:19:09] housing on Theo Von, does that make me eventually become a Theo Von listener? That kind of tracking down the funnel, we still don't know. It's still kind of amorphous, even though we supposedly live in a highly datafied and trackable age.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Anna from Tenafly, New Jersey. Hi, Anna. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Anna: Hello. I was just saying to the person who answered the phone that first of all, perhaps it's a function of the generation that I'm in, but I'm perfectly capable of using my imagination for starters. In addition to that, I prefer radio, audio podcasts as well because I feel like I listen more carefully without the distractions of looking at the people, looking at what they're wearing at the background, how they're interacting with each other. I infer that from the tone of their voice and the nature of their conversation. I just think that audio podcasts are much preferable for those reasons. I have no interest in video podcasts.

Alison Stewart: Anna, thanks for calling in. I'm curious, is there a generational divide here?

Nick Quah: Oh, absolutely. I think that's the secret dynamic-- or the not super widely spoken dynamic is going on here. My feeling is that a lot of-- Let me put it this way, a lot of youngins, visual in the video language and short-form video language is the principal language of the time, and it is the primary way, younger demographics, we think of Gen Z but also early millennials, are primarily consuming their media. It's definitely a consideration, yes.

Alison Stewart: When I see the video podcasts and I see them with the guests, the group that I see perhaps feeling the pain of it is the talk shows, the nine talk shows. Because these guests will go on, they'll bypass the nighttime talk shows, the Jimmy Kimmel's, and they'll spend two hours talking to Las Culturistas about whatever.

Nick Quah: Absolutely. We also--

Alison Stewart: Jessica Parker, she spent a long time. She's wonderful, but she spent a lot of time talking to Las Culturistas.

Nick Quah: Right, and we're seeing what seems to be the beginning of the end of Late Night, with Stephen Colbert's cancellation, and that show just being canceled outright with no replacement. We recently worked on a package over at Vulture not too long ago about what we're calling a New Media Circuit, which is if you're going to sell a movie, if you're going to sell a book, it used to be the case that you go try to get a magazine cover, go on a bunch of late night talk show hosts and maybe move a ton of units as a result.

These days, you have infinite options of things to try to hit in order to sell a book or sell tickets for a movie. It's unclear whether any one individual show moves the needle anymore. It includes stuff like podcasts, and it also includes stuff like YouTube shows like Hot Ones and Chicken Shop Date. Yes, Late Night as the traditional form feels like it's on the decline or on the way out, but the function and the soul of what Late Night does, it's never been more widespread and carried out by different kinds of players these days.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kay, calling in from Rochester. Hey Kay, what do you have to say?

Kay: Hey, how's it going? Thanks so much for having this really interesting conversation. I was just sharing with your screener that I like to watch podcasts depending on who's hosting and I really like listening to others because, frankly, I'm not as dependent upon the expressions in their face and how they're responding to guests as much as I just want to hear the content. I follow a few people.

There's a wonderful New York Times-- she's a columnist, and she's an award-winning journalist. I think she broke some really important stories, and I don't want to get into exactly who that is, but she, as a podcaster, her content obviously is just like absolutely riveting. I must know what she has to say every day. I can access it on YouTube, but she doesn't-- she's not interested in like looking a certain way and looking jazzy and all that. However, I am riveted to her words.

That's an example where I'll be traveling and I'll just listen to the podcast, but there are other people who are really compelling, such as The Daily Beast. Not even The Bulwark anymore, but the Daily Beast, I love Joanna Coles. I love the way she poses questions and then looks at the response of her guests and how they interact with her.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Kay: Because I'm getting more nuance and I'm watching her trying to decide what else she's going to say. She does have very specific expressions when people answer.

Alison Stewart: Yes, I'm going to dive in there because we've run out of time. Thank you so much for your response, Kay. Kay brings me to the question, is there room for both audio and video podcasts?

Nick Quah: We will find out.

[laughter]

Nick Quah: That's the answer at this point in time.

Alison Stewart: Nick Quah is Vulture's podcast critic. Thanks for joining us for our Small Stakes, Big Opinions. We really appreciate it.

Nick Quah: My pleasure. Love Small Stakes.