'The Ghosts Of Gwendolyn Montgomery,' By Clarence A. Hayes
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- 2025-07-08
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A mystical adventure awaits Gwendolyn Montgomery, an NYC power publicist, who finds herself caught in web of murder.
A mystical adventure awaits Gwendolyn Montgomery, an NYC power publicist, who finds herself caught in web of murder.
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Alison Stewart: What is a super publicist supposed to do when she seems to be the target of ghosts? The answer? Hook up with a Bronx psychic to help her find out why she is their target. Coming up, author Clarence Haynes joins us to discuss his new book, The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. That's next.
This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. It is day two of our Beach Read series. We're looking at books you can't put down while you're at the beach or in the park or on your own staycation, wherever you are. Today, we take you to New York City. We also spend time in the space between life and death, sort of a purgatory where ghosts can get stuck, and boy, do they want out? The book is called The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery by Clarence Haynes. It starts as Gwendolyn is excited about the man she's seeing and more excited about her thriving career. She is a superstar publicist, and she is booked and busy. That is, until her events start to go awry in a bad way. Blood is splattered everywhere at a fashion show she is repping. At another event, her client is outed as a homophobe with screen images as a big press availability. Then there's always a message which seems to be aimed at her. Gwendolyn needs to get to the bottom of what is going on. For this, she turns to a queer Latinx psychic from the South Bronx who knows what is what. Kirkus Reviews said of the book, "Hanes has created a mystical, sensuous, dangerous world of spirits and power while also making characters that feel three-dimensional and knowledgeable.
Friendships feel real. Family problems have the weight of generations of fights and secrets behind them. Like the best fantasy novel, there is room for a million more stories to be told to see how things progressed after the last pages with both the characters and the world itself." Clarence Haynes will be at Sisters Uptown at 1942 Amsterdam this Friday, but he joins me now in studio. It's nice to meet you.
Clarence Haynes: It's lovely to meet you as well, Alison. Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. Wow. [laughter]
Alison Stewart: You started as a copywriter, you've co-written books about young historical novels. This is your first adult novel, I should say. When did you know you wanted to write an adult novel, and why?
Clarence Haynes: I had always known that my debut novel for adults would be speculative fiction. It was something that had been in my heart for a while, and it was really when I was speaking to my publisher, Krishan Trotman. My imprint is Legacy Lit. Shout out to Legacy Lit about the idea that she gave me the green light. She thought it was wonderful, and she thought it something that would be an asset to the imprint. Once I sort of had the green light from her, I was able to go there and do what I needed to do. I also wanted to make sure to pay tribute to my roots as a native New Yorker.
Alison Stewart: I was going to say that. They say write what you know. What did you know, what did you want to write about?
Clarence Haynes: I grew up in the Bronx during the 1970s and '80s, a proud Gen Xer, and my family immigrated here from Panama. I wanted to write something again that would be speculative fiction, that would really honor our roots, that would really pay tribute, pay homage to how I grew up. The scenes, the food, the sensibilities, the language, the style, the swag, all of that. I worked really hard to get that on the page and to capture a piece of New York that I think isn't as centered as it once was.
Alison Stewart: Let's talk about characters. Gwendolyn, she's a superstar publicist to clients everywhere. For example, who would be a client? A real-life client, let's say.
Clarence Haynes: [laughs] A real-life client would be-- That's a wonderful question. I'm going to go with Michael B. Jordan. He would come to her for like, "Oh, I want to do something that would really-- I mean, he's already well established and fabulous, but if he wanted something that was a little off the beaten path, but would really, nonetheless make him look great, really sparkle, add a different type of shimmer to his already wonderful image.
Alison Stewart: What detail in the book did you put about Gwendolyn that lets us know who she is and what she's about?
Clarence Haynes: She is really obsessed with fashion, with things being just so. In her home, everything has a place. There's really no messiness in terms of her appearance, it's immaculate, and there's a reason for that. It's not just sort of, wouldn't this be nice to have a glamorous, powerful Black woman who's into these things? As we learn more about her past and her history, we learn there's a reason why she's so obsessed with looking good, with putting things together. It's something that she studied quite routinely during her teenage years.
Alison Stewart: All right, we first meet her. She's putting on a fashion show at the Brooklyn Museum. Things are going really well. Then something wild happens, which is what I'm going to get you to read a little bit about. This happens on page 19 of the book, so we're not giving you too much. You see where I wrote the purple mark? Okay. Read that till the end. This is Clarence Haynes reading from The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery.
Clarence Haynes: "Gwendolyn's phone vibrated in her skirt pocket. Media hits were coming in, she was sure. Notes of praise from people tuning in to live broadcasts. But more importantly, offers to hold meetings to shore up branding deals for Lamarque and Veronica. Potential clients peeping the show would soon be reaching out, asking for opportunities to work together. New income was on the horizon. Sublime would be okay. Financial woes over. Yes. James took Gwendolyn's hand and gently squeezed her fingers. She glanced over, saw tears streaming down his face as he gazed upon what she'd created.
Confirmation that she'd bought awe and grace to others with her work. Yes. Gwendolyn felt rejuvenated, able to breathe for the first time in days, energy pulsing beneath her skin. Energy she pushed down by instinct. She could refocus, enjoy the show, exult in her agency's future success, exult in being with her man. As the models walked out, craggy red streaks appeared at the runway entrance, flowing onto the floor. Some sort of paint. Gwendolyn let go of James's hand. This effect wasn't in the production doc.
More crimson paint flanked the runway, as if being poured onto the platform. 'What's going on?' James whispered. She gave a tiny shrug, mouthing, 'I don't know.' Gwendolyn smelled something. The faint odor of copper. The models continued their walk undeterred. One model slipped on the paint and fell to the ground, letting out a tiny shriek as her feet were swept out from beneath her. Gwendolyn jumped from her feet and dashed to the runway. 'Are you okay?' She asked as she leaned over the platform and reached out for the young woman.
A second model fell, pulling down another and then another. 'No,' Gwendolyn thought. Veronica kept singing, but looked over with a question in her eyes. Should we stop? The special black light filling the lobby was too dim for Gwendolyn to discern what was happening. She pivoted from the runway and ran to the control booth, discreetly positioned behind the coat check. The technician responsible for the show's effects was still as a rock, dumbfounded. 'Turn on the lights,' she shouted as she grabbed him by the arm, the air now so cold that her breath had begun to mist.
The man glared briefly at Gwendolyn and flipped two buttons on his console. The entire museum flooded with light. Gwendolyn's heart pounded. She could see. Everyone could see. Veronica stopped singing. The musicians stopped playing. A statuesque man with long platinum hair and a flowy pantsuit rushed onto the runway from backstage and bent down to assist the fallen model. Le Marche, his face crushed. Gwendolyn was just as horrified. The show a catastrophe. The runway, the walls, the models, all covered in scarlet paint.
No, that wasn't right. Not paint. Blood. The metallic scent in the air should have told Gwendolyn all she needed to know. The same scent that had permeated morning dreams. She blinked, looked down. Her linen suit splattered. Gwendolyn fought a wave of nausea. A multitude of sounds filled her ears as she absorbed everything around her. Lamarque was onstage, cursing. The blood-soaked models in tears. Jessica leapt onto the runway to help. Veronica's jaw scraped the stage. Clive ran towards the museum's exit, bodyguard in tow. James was frozen in his chair, head buried in his chest, thick streaking crimson everywhere, cold numbing Gwendolyn's fingers. Something appeared on the back wall of the runway, smeared, dripping, hard to read. She squinted. It was in Spanish, letters, large and jagged, grotesque tridora, traitor."
Alison Stewart: Dun dun dun. That is from The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. My guest is Clarence Haynes. That's pretty early in the novel. I wondered what you decided about pacing when you put such a big event in the beginning of the novel. Then you have to not repeat them, but you have to build on them throughout the novel.
Clarence Haynes: That was one of the challenges of writing the book in terms of figuring out the book is a fusion of genres. It's a bit romance, it's a bit horror, it's a bit urban fantasy, it's a bit mystery thriller. Then, in terms of how to keep sort of those mysterious elements going in a propulsive way to end each-- One of the things I love to do is to end each chapter with a cliffhanger. I think I pulled it off, except for a couple of chapters. Then being okay that what particular theme I might be writing to might shift as a result of the book being a fusion of genres.
Alison Stewart: I've heard a few people, and I even said this to somebody, this reminds me of Sinners a little bit.
Clarence Haynes: I am thrilled to hear.
[laughter]
Alison Stewart: Well, just the idea there are so many different genres in the book and how they are seamless. I'm curious. You've heard that before.
Clarence Haynes: Yes, thank you. That's such high praise. I really appreciate that. I have heard that. What's been also quite interesting is that for some early readers, they're a bit thrown off and they're a bit. For instance, if you're a horror person and you expect your beats to come at a certain time in a certain way, and with this, it's not quite going to do that. I'm hoping in our post-Sinners world that we get used to genre fusion, that we get used to stories being told that might utilize horror elements, for instance, in a way that's different. Sinners focus so much on characters, place, history, memory, in the beginning of the movie, and then it got to the vampires. Obviously I wrote this before Sinners, but I was really heartened to see that a film like that could do so well. I hope more stories are given the opportunity to shine as a result.
Alison Stewart: Was it a hard sell? It was before Sinners. It was before everybody got used to the idea.
Clarence Haynes: It was not, but that's because I have a very, very supportive publisher. As I said before, Krishan has just been wonderful. She also doesn't come to genre in a-- She knows her stuff when it comes to speculative fiction, but she doesn't come from it in a sort of rigid, traditional way, and so there was a lot of room to play. I didn't really feel like I had to do much convincing.
Alison Stewart: My guest is Clarence Haynes. The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery is our choice for a good beach read. All right, let's bring in another character, Fonsi. Who's Fonsi? Where do we meet him?
Clarence Haynes: Fonsi is a Panamanian American psychic who runs a botanica in the South Bronx. He basically can commune with ghosts in his sleep. In this world, ghosts basically mostly tether themselves to objects that hold sentimental value or property. He's also having a forbidden, shall we say, forbidden physical intimacy with a spirit, which he's not supposed to do. He's reeling, he's hurting from a situation he just got out of with his ex, Raphael.
Alison Stewart: You bring in the different roles of religion. He's sort of like a cross between Catholicism and Santeria, you write at one point. What is Fonsi's role within the religion?
Clarence Haynes: He's a guardian. I'm saying it in English, even though I use Spanish in the book, because my Spanish is so bad that I'm frightened of mispronouncing words on air. He belongs to a particular order that's inspired by real-world spiritual traditions, but the rules of the order are its own thing. I wanted to be inspired by these traditions, but I didn't necessarily want to say that what I'm writing is meant to be sort of like a legitimate interpretation of how these belief systems work.
I sort of did my own thing, but at the same time, referencing what we know in the real world.
Alison Stewart: Gwendolyn and Fonsi get together. We won't give too much away, but what they discover is there are ghosts who are not happy, there are ghosts who want out, or there's ghosts who've been kept inside. What did you learn about ghosts for this book? Did you do research? Did it come from your imagination?
Clarence Haynes: A bit of both. In terms of my upbringing, my mother certainly believed in and practiced certain spiritual traditions that I was able to put into the book. Then I did do some research, but then I also just allowed the story to speak to me. I know writers speak about this all the time, as the story-- When you sit with it long enough, it tells you what it needs to be. For years ago, I thought, "Oh, what craziness are people talking about?" But that really was the case for me as well.
After a while, as I just immersed myself in the narrative, the world-building just came. Just in terms of this concept of disgruntled ghosts being stuck in this in-between place, it just made sense. I was just able to sort of organically expand on that idea.
Alison Stewart: When I read this, I thought it was so interesting because in the book, the idea is that maybe the ghosts were part of the Bronx burning down in 1979, that these were angry ghosts that caused the Bronx to go up in flames. Where did you get that idea?
Clarence Haynes: I wanted as much as I could to honor real-world history. I was like, "Okay-- It's interesting, an early reader, she asked me who I believe she lives in the Bronx. She was like, "Did this really happen? Was the Bronx really burning?" At one point, I was like, "Yes, it was." [laughs] At the same time, I wanted to make reference to it, but then I couldn't fully do a digression into real-world history without incorporating what the book is, the narrative of the book. I just sort of did this thing that was going to be a fusion. Fusion that keeps on coming up, that work keeps on coming up. A fusion of real-world history and my imagination.
Alison Stewart: Well, to find out what happens to Gwendolyn and Fonsi and the ghost, you'll have to read The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. We asked you, because you are a writer, you are somebody who deals with a lot of writers as a copywriter, to engage in our summer challenge to make some recommendations. What is a classic that you've been meaning to get to?
Clarence Haynes: I will say Tar Baby by Toni Morrison. I have read all of Toni Morrison's novels except for Tar Baby and Paradise, and I think it's just been sitting-- Both of those books have been sitting on my shelf because I'm so intimidated to get to them. To immerse yourself in a Morrison work, as people know, it's like, "Ah, you have to give yourself over." I think I've been a little frightened to go there.
Alison Stewart: A book about or set in New York City, you can't use your book. Other people can read your book, but you can't use your book.
Clarence Haynes: A Love Song for Ricki Wilde by Tia Williams, which is set in Harlem. Florist Musa Harlem. I'm sorry, woman, Musa Harlem to open up a flower shop, and there's a mysterious connection to the Harlem Renaissance. As she meets a man. That's all I'll say.
Alison Stewart: A memoir or a biography? What did you choose?
Clarence Haynes: Zami by Audre Lorde. With Zami, Lorde was challenging what the concept of memoir, biography could be just really iconic work. I think everyone needs to read Audre Lorde at some point in their life, whether you know her memoir or essays, or anything. That was like a no-brainer for me.
Alison Stewart: A recent debut novel?
Clarence Haynes: The Fantasies of Future Things by Doug Jones. I actually know Doug. We go way back to Columbia, and this is about two gay men navigating their feelings for each other during in Atlanta, preparing for the 1996 Olympics. It deals a lot with issues of gentrification, displacement, politics, that sort of thing.
Alison Stewart: Sounds good.
Clarence Haynes: Beautiful writing. He's a beautiful writer. I'm currently reading that. I wanted to choose something that I'm in the middle of.
Alison Stewart: A book published in 2025.
Clarence Haynes: Meet Me at the Crossroads by Megan Giddings, which is I had to do speculative fiction shout-out. Basically, I'm also in the middle of reading this. Basically, these mysterious doors appear, and there's a lot of exploration around ideas of spirituality and religion and one's place in the world. Again, this is another one where I just find the writing to be beautiful and really engaging. I'm not sure where it's going, but I have to give her props.
Alison Stewart: People can find out more about our summer reading challenge by going to wnyc/summerreading. You can add to your list a book out in 2025. It's The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. It is by Clarence Haynes. He has an event Friday, July 11th at 6:00 PM at Sisters Uptown. Thank you for coming into the studio.
Clarence Haynes: Thank you so much for having me, Alison.
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Alison Stewart: What is a super publicist supposed to do when she seems to be the target of ghosts? The answer? Hook up with a Bronx psychic to help her find out why she is their target. Coming up, author Clarence Haynes joins us to discuss his new book, The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. That's next.
This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. It is day two of our Beach Read series. We're looking at books you can't put down while you're at the beach or in the park or on your own staycation, wherever you are. Today, we take you to New York City. We also spend time in the space between life and death, sort of a purgatory where ghosts can get stuck, and boy, do they want out? The book is called The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery by Clarence Haynes. It starts as Gwendolyn is excited about the man she's seeing and more excited about her thriving career. She is a superstar publicist, and she is booked and busy. That is, until her events start to go awry in a bad way. Blood is splattered everywhere at a fashion show she is repping. At another event, her client is outed as a homophobe with screen images as a big press availability. Then there's always a message which seems to be aimed at her. Gwendolyn needs to get to the bottom of what is going on. For this, she turns to a queer Latinx psychic from the South Bronx who knows what is what. Kirkus Reviews said of the book, "Hanes has created a mystical, sensuous, dangerous world of spirits and power while also making characters that feel three-dimensional and knowledgeable.
Friendships feel real. Family problems have the weight of generations of fights and secrets behind them. Like the best fantasy novel, there is room for a million more stories to be told to see how things progressed after the last pages with both the characters and the world itself." Clarence Haynes will be at Sisters Uptown at 1942 Amsterdam this Friday, but he joins me now in studio. It's nice to meet you.
Clarence Haynes: It's lovely to meet you as well, Alison. Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction. Wow. [laughter]
Alison Stewart: You started as a copywriter, you've co-written books about young historical novels. This is your first adult novel, I should say. When did you know you wanted to write an adult novel, and why?
Clarence Haynes: I had always known that my debut novel for adults would be speculative fiction. It was something that had been in my heart for a while, and it was really when I was speaking to my publisher, Krishan Trotman. My imprint is Legacy Lit. Shout out to Legacy Lit about the idea that she gave me the green light. She thought it was wonderful, and she thought it something that would be an asset to the imprint. Once I sort of had the green light from her, I was able to go there and do what I needed to do. I also wanted to make sure to pay tribute to my roots as a native New Yorker.
Alison Stewart: I was going to say that. They say write what you know. What did you know, what did you want to write about?
Clarence Haynes: I grew up in the Bronx during the 1970s and '80s, a proud Gen Xer, and my family immigrated here from Panama. I wanted to write something again that would be speculative fiction, that would really honor our roots, that would really pay tribute, pay homage to how I grew up. The scenes, the food, the sensibilities, the language, the style, the swag, all of that. I worked really hard to get that on the page and to capture a piece of New York that I think isn't as centered as it once was.
Alison Stewart: Let's talk about characters. Gwendolyn, she's a superstar publicist to clients everywhere. For example, who would be a client? A real-life client, let's say.
Clarence Haynes: [laughs] A real-life client would be-- That's a wonderful question. I'm going to go with Michael B. Jordan. He would come to her for like, "Oh, I want to do something that would really-- I mean, he's already well established and fabulous, but if he wanted something that was a little off the beaten path, but would really, nonetheless make him look great, really sparkle, add a different type of shimmer to his already wonderful image.
Alison Stewart: What detail in the book did you put about Gwendolyn that lets us know who she is and what she's about?
Clarence Haynes: She is really obsessed with fashion, with things being just so. In her home, everything has a place. There's really no messiness in terms of her appearance, it's immaculate, and there's a reason for that. It's not just sort of, wouldn't this be nice to have a glamorous, powerful Black woman who's into these things? As we learn more about her past and her history, we learn there's a reason why she's so obsessed with looking good, with putting things together. It's something that she studied quite routinely during her teenage years.
Alison Stewart: All right, we first meet her. She's putting on a fashion show at the Brooklyn Museum. Things are going really well. Then something wild happens, which is what I'm going to get you to read a little bit about. This happens on page 19 of the book, so we're not giving you too much. You see where I wrote the purple mark? Okay. Read that till the end. This is Clarence Haynes reading from The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery.
Clarence Haynes: "Gwendolyn's phone vibrated in her skirt pocket. Media hits were coming in, she was sure. Notes of praise from people tuning in to live broadcasts. But more importantly, offers to hold meetings to shore up branding deals for Lamarque and Veronica. Potential clients peeping the show would soon be reaching out, asking for opportunities to work together. New income was on the horizon. Sublime would be okay. Financial woes over. Yes. James took Gwendolyn's hand and gently squeezed her fingers. She glanced over, saw tears streaming down his face as he gazed upon what she'd created.
Confirmation that she'd bought awe and grace to others with her work. Yes. Gwendolyn felt rejuvenated, able to breathe for the first time in days, energy pulsing beneath her skin. Energy she pushed down by instinct. She could refocus, enjoy the show, exult in her agency's future success, exult in being with her man. As the models walked out, craggy red streaks appeared at the runway entrance, flowing onto the floor. Some sort of paint. Gwendolyn let go of James's hand. This effect wasn't in the production doc.
More crimson paint flanked the runway, as if being poured onto the platform. 'What's going on?' James whispered. She gave a tiny shrug, mouthing, 'I don't know.' Gwendolyn smelled something. The faint odor of copper. The models continued their walk undeterred. One model slipped on the paint and fell to the ground, letting out a tiny shriek as her feet were swept out from beneath her. Gwendolyn jumped from her feet and dashed to the runway. 'Are you okay?' She asked as she leaned over the platform and reached out for the young woman.
A second model fell, pulling down another and then another. 'No,' Gwendolyn thought. Veronica kept singing, but looked over with a question in her eyes. Should we stop? The special black light filling the lobby was too dim for Gwendolyn to discern what was happening. She pivoted from the runway and ran to the control booth, discreetly positioned behind the coat check. The technician responsible for the show's effects was still as a rock, dumbfounded. 'Turn on the lights,' she shouted as she grabbed him by the arm, the air now so cold that her breath had begun to mist.
The man glared briefly at Gwendolyn and flipped two buttons on his console. The entire museum flooded with light. Gwendolyn's heart pounded. She could see. Everyone could see. Veronica stopped singing. The musicians stopped playing. A statuesque man with long platinum hair and a flowy pantsuit rushed onto the runway from backstage and bent down to assist the fallen model. Le Marche, his face crushed. Gwendolyn was just as horrified. The show a catastrophe. The runway, the walls, the models, all covered in scarlet paint.
No, that wasn't right. Not paint. Blood. The metallic scent in the air should have told Gwendolyn all she needed to know. The same scent that had permeated morning dreams. She blinked, looked down. Her linen suit splattered. Gwendolyn fought a wave of nausea. A multitude of sounds filled her ears as she absorbed everything around her. Lamarque was onstage, cursing. The blood-soaked models in tears. Jessica leapt onto the runway to help. Veronica's jaw scraped the stage. Clive ran towards the museum's exit, bodyguard in tow. James was frozen in his chair, head buried in his chest, thick streaking crimson everywhere, cold numbing Gwendolyn's fingers. Something appeared on the back wall of the runway, smeared, dripping, hard to read. She squinted. It was in Spanish, letters, large and jagged, grotesque tridora, traitor."
Alison Stewart: Dun dun dun. That is from The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. My guest is Clarence Haynes. That's pretty early in the novel. I wondered what you decided about pacing when you put such a big event in the beginning of the novel. Then you have to not repeat them, but you have to build on them throughout the novel.
Clarence Haynes: That was one of the challenges of writing the book in terms of figuring out the book is a fusion of genres. It's a bit romance, it's a bit horror, it's a bit urban fantasy, it's a bit mystery thriller. Then, in terms of how to keep sort of those mysterious elements going in a propulsive way to end each-- One of the things I love to do is to end each chapter with a cliffhanger. I think I pulled it off, except for a couple of chapters. Then being okay that what particular theme I might be writing to might shift as a result of the book being a fusion of genres.
Alison Stewart: I've heard a few people, and I even said this to somebody, this reminds me of Sinners a little bit.
Clarence Haynes: I am thrilled to hear.
[laughter]
Alison Stewart: Well, just the idea there are so many different genres in the book and how they are seamless. I'm curious. You've heard that before.
Clarence Haynes: Yes, thank you. That's such high praise. I really appreciate that. I have heard that. What's been also quite interesting is that for some early readers, they're a bit thrown off and they're a bit. For instance, if you're a horror person and you expect your beats to come at a certain time in a certain way, and with this, it's not quite going to do that. I'm hoping in our post-Sinners world that we get used to genre fusion, that we get used to stories being told that might utilize horror elements, for instance, in a way that's different. Sinners focus so much on characters, place, history, memory, in the beginning of the movie, and then it got to the vampires. Obviously I wrote this before Sinners, but I was really heartened to see that a film like that could do so well. I hope more stories are given the opportunity to shine as a result.
Alison Stewart: Was it a hard sell? It was before Sinners. It was before everybody got used to the idea.
Clarence Haynes: It was not, but that's because I have a very, very supportive publisher. As I said before, Krishan has just been wonderful. She also doesn't come to genre in a-- She knows her stuff when it comes to speculative fiction, but she doesn't come from it in a sort of rigid, traditional way, and so there was a lot of room to play. I didn't really feel like I had to do much convincing.
Alison Stewart: My guest is Clarence Haynes. The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery is our choice for a good beach read. All right, let's bring in another character, Fonsi. Who's Fonsi? Where do we meet him?
Clarence Haynes: Fonsi is a Panamanian American psychic who runs a botanica in the South Bronx. He basically can commune with ghosts in his sleep. In this world, ghosts basically mostly tether themselves to objects that hold sentimental value or property. He's also having a forbidden, shall we say, forbidden physical intimacy with a spirit, which he's not supposed to do. He's reeling, he's hurting from a situation he just got out of with his ex, Raphael.
Alison Stewart: You bring in the different roles of religion. He's sort of like a cross between Catholicism and Santeria, you write at one point. What is Fonsi's role within the religion?
Clarence Haynes: He's a guardian. I'm saying it in English, even though I use Spanish in the book, because my Spanish is so bad that I'm frightened of mispronouncing words on air. He belongs to a particular order that's inspired by real-world spiritual traditions, but the rules of the order are its own thing. I wanted to be inspired by these traditions, but I didn't necessarily want to say that what I'm writing is meant to be sort of like a legitimate interpretation of how these belief systems work.
I sort of did my own thing, but at the same time, referencing what we know in the real world.
Alison Stewart: Gwendolyn and Fonsi get together. We won't give too much away, but what they discover is there are ghosts who are not happy, there are ghosts who want out, or there's ghosts who've been kept inside. What did you learn about ghosts for this book? Did you do research? Did it come from your imagination?
Clarence Haynes: A bit of both. In terms of my upbringing, my mother certainly believed in and practiced certain spiritual traditions that I was able to put into the book. Then I did do some research, but then I also just allowed the story to speak to me. I know writers speak about this all the time, as the story-- When you sit with it long enough, it tells you what it needs to be. For years ago, I thought, "Oh, what craziness are people talking about?" But that really was the case for me as well.
After a while, as I just immersed myself in the narrative, the world-building just came. Just in terms of this concept of disgruntled ghosts being stuck in this in-between place, it just made sense. I was just able to sort of organically expand on that idea.
Alison Stewart: When I read this, I thought it was so interesting because in the book, the idea is that maybe the ghosts were part of the Bronx burning down in 1979, that these were angry ghosts that caused the Bronx to go up in flames. Where did you get that idea?
Clarence Haynes: I wanted as much as I could to honor real-world history. I was like, "Okay-- It's interesting, an early reader, she asked me who I believe she lives in the Bronx. She was like, "Did this really happen? Was the Bronx really burning?" At one point, I was like, "Yes, it was." [laughs] At the same time, I wanted to make reference to it, but then I couldn't fully do a digression into real-world history without incorporating what the book is, the narrative of the book. I just sort of did this thing that was going to be a fusion. Fusion that keeps on coming up, that work keeps on coming up. A fusion of real-world history and my imagination.
Alison Stewart: Well, to find out what happens to Gwendolyn and Fonsi and the ghost, you'll have to read The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. We asked you, because you are a writer, you are somebody who deals with a lot of writers as a copywriter, to engage in our summer challenge to make some recommendations. What is a classic that you've been meaning to get to?
Clarence Haynes: I will say Tar Baby by Toni Morrison. I have read all of Toni Morrison's novels except for Tar Baby and Paradise, and I think it's just been sitting-- Both of those books have been sitting on my shelf because I'm so intimidated to get to them. To immerse yourself in a Morrison work, as people know, it's like, "Ah, you have to give yourself over." I think I've been a little frightened to go there.
Alison Stewart: A book about or set in New York City, you can't use your book. Other people can read your book, but you can't use your book.
Clarence Haynes: A Love Song for Ricki Wilde by Tia Williams, which is set in Harlem. Florist Musa Harlem. I'm sorry, woman, Musa Harlem to open up a flower shop, and there's a mysterious connection to the Harlem Renaissance. As she meets a man. That's all I'll say.
Alison Stewart: A memoir or a biography? What did you choose?
Clarence Haynes: Zami by Audre Lorde. With Zami, Lorde was challenging what the concept of memoir, biography could be just really iconic work. I think everyone needs to read Audre Lorde at some point in their life, whether you know her memoir or essays, or anything. That was like a no-brainer for me.
Alison Stewart: A recent debut novel?
Clarence Haynes: The Fantasies of Future Things by Doug Jones. I actually know Doug. We go way back to Columbia, and this is about two gay men navigating their feelings for each other during in Atlanta, preparing for the 1996 Olympics. It deals a lot with issues of gentrification, displacement, politics, that sort of thing.
Alison Stewart: Sounds good.
Clarence Haynes: Beautiful writing. He's a beautiful writer. I'm currently reading that. I wanted to choose something that I'm in the middle of.
Alison Stewart: A book published in 2025.
Clarence Haynes: Meet Me at the Crossroads by Megan Giddings, which is I had to do speculative fiction shout-out. Basically, I'm also in the middle of reading this. Basically, these mysterious doors appear, and there's a lot of exploration around ideas of spirituality and religion and one's place in the world. Again, this is another one where I just find the writing to be beautiful and really engaging. I'm not sure where it's going, but I have to give her props.
Alison Stewart: People can find out more about our summer reading challenge by going to wnyc/summerreading. You can add to your list a book out in 2025. It's The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery. It is by Clarence Haynes. He has an event Friday, July 11th at 6:00 PM at Sisters Uptown. Thank you for coming into the studio.
Clarence Haynes: Thank you so much for having me, Alison.
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